Who cares if he got them in the right places...They are still in there, and he got his point across. When somebody can't reply back arguing there own case they start to nitpick (sp?) at the other persons post and they insult their grammer or do something like you just did...
Actually it says it there, not in the spot you posted...but yea, it does say it in the bible...you got your point across and i can't argue my case because you totally disproved what I use as my arguement...but you still had that one spot wrong!!!
Okay, you really want to get into this? Fine by me. Which point didn't I get across? That he's mocking the Bible? That he's misunderstanding the Salvation that's been given to us? That he's making it sound like he's read the bible when it's clear he didn't?
You tell me which point I didn't make clear enough for you and I will clearify it. I've got no problems going toe to toe with you or anybody else, even if you are a Moderator for this forum and have the ablility to delete my posts, and possible arrange for me to banned from the site.
There are over 209 abominations towards heterosexuals and only 6 towards homosexuals.
And no I will NOT elaborate, because I don’t intend on going out and getting another bible and searching up all the phrases.
You're right, there are over 209 abominations towards heterosexuals, and all of them deal with sexual relationships outside of the marital bonds.
Homosexuality has six abominations, but have you ever comparied the two results of each? Which one has the worse abominations, heterosexuals or homosexuals?
I'd have to say hetero. But when I did go to church... Catholic, They were more focused on the hetero sins than the homosexual sins. Apparently they mean't more.
Seriously, can someone tell me what's the logical reasoning for not sleeping with the same sex. I know for incest it has to do with blood, and the gene pool.
I'd have to say hetero. But when I did go to church... Catholic, They were more focused on the hetero sins than the homosexual sins. Apparently they mean't more.
Seriously, can someone tell me what's the logical reasoning for not sleeping with the same sex. I know for incest it has to do with blood, and the gene pool.
On the Bible:
Its because at the time Leviticus was being created the hebrew faith's major competition were the religeons of Babylonia. The priests of Ishtar dressed and acted as women and homosexuality was an accepted practice. In fear for their powerbase the hebrew priests concocted this idea of homosexuality as a sin. Thus preventing their men (who were often dragged into the Babylonia armies for their wars with egypt) form being exposed to opposing ideas on pain of death by stoning.
As for a logical reason not to sleep with the same sex, there isn't one beyond 'do you want to?'
Funny, I've always thought that part of sexual relations was for procreation. Last time I checked two men couldn't procreate, and neither could two woman for that matter.
Who cares if he got them in the right places...They are still in there, and he got his point across. When somebody can't reply back arguing there own case they start to nitpick (sp?) at the other persons post and they insult their grammer or do something like you just did...
Actually it says it there, not in the spot you posted...but yea, it does say it in the bible...you got your point across and i can't argue my case because you totally disproved what I use as my arguement...but you still had that one spot wrong!!!
Okay, you really want to get into this? Fine by me. Which point didn't I get across? That he's mocking the Bible? That he's misunderstanding the Salvation that's been given to us? That he's making it sound like he's read the bible when it's clear he didn't?
You tell me which point I didn't make clear enough for you and I will clearify it. I've got no problems going toe to toe with you or anybody else, even if you are a Moderator for this forum and have the ablility to delete my posts, and possible arrange for me to banned from the site.
So come on, what are you missing in my points?
I never said you didn't get your point across. When I said they can't argue their own case I meant by where you stand on the subject (you obviously think homosexuality is wrong and the creator of this topic thinks there is no problem with it. from what you posted I read nothing that supported what you beleive is right.) What i mean by that is, he pointed those things out in the bible, and all you did was disprove some of them and critisize him for not getting some of them in the right places. Nothing supporting why homosexuality is wrong. Most people say it is because it is in the bible...he pointed other things out in the bible that don't make sense anymore, but they are still in the bible so why don't we allow them?
From reading that first post of yours you acted like you totally disproved everything he said when you didn't. Thats what I am getting at here. What he said is still in the bible, so why shouldnt it still stand to this day?
Also, doesn't matter if I'm a mod...We can still dance
still in there and he got his point across are still in there and he got his point across . Time does not exist. The other persons post and they insult their grammer or do something like you just did is where it's at. Actually you don't say. I've heard that before. Where would I get your point across and i can not argue my case because you totally disproved what I use as my arguement? But I do have A great botmaster. And. What happened to that one spot wrong. The small one, I think. I see. mocking the BibleIt goes without saying. I don't know what I am missing in my points. You never know what to expect from life. Please tell me the correct answer. Good reason. Are there any other ones someplace else? I get it. making it sound like he is read the bible when it is clear he did not pointed other things out in the bible that do not make sense anymore but they are still in the bible so why do not we allow them. Where is that: here THAT? That's not something I get asked all the time. Did you believe him? How?
Funny, I've always thought that part of sexual relations was for procreation. Last time I checked two men couldn't procreate, and neither could two woman for that matter.
Not that I can think of any...but there have been rulers of countries in the past (that were catholic) that use to have their wife (the queen) and then have tons of mistresses to mess around with not to reproduce. and there were probably also very important people in the bible who did the same thing...should we smite them?
also, should we also make condoms and birth control pills illegal then?
Last edited by KobeEgan on Sun Oct 09, 2005 9:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
Funny, I've always thought that part of sexual relations was for procreation. Last time I checked two men couldn't procreate, and neither could two woman for that matter.
That is your 'opinion' not a fact. Sex can lead to procreation, but it certainly doesn't follow it must. Dolphins mate year round but are only fertile for a couple of weeks a year. Are they just attempting futilly for the rest of the year? No, of course not, they are well aware (as seen through observed behvior) that they cannot. And lets not get into the practices of some of our closer relatives in the animal kingdom.
Sex is as much an emotional experiance as a pragmatic one, that's one of the effects of this underused brain we are supposed to possess. Once we could take control of our ability to procreate we did and had sex for the shear joy of it. Its not like contraceptives are a new idea.
The opinion you have expressed is exactly the one the early hebrew priests wanted to enforce. They were terrified that if their people discovered guiltless sex they would convert to less strict religeons. Hence the 'make it a sin so we can kill practitioners' idea. They knew people were basically stupid and would belive what ever they told them so they started making this crap up. Unfortunatly they couldn't keep all the stories straight, differant areas had slightly differant versions, some had whole stories that others didn't. Which is why the bible is so repeditive, boring and self contridictory. By the time the Roman yahoos who founded the Church decided they needed all this stuff in writing they had an absurd amount to deal with. They held a conclave and these men decided what was and was not God's Word, some of the things they declaired heresy was done so because it either forbid the formation of the church, forbid non-hebrews to be christian (much of the NT still does), or contridicted the parts they felt should be God's Word
_________________ People who say violence never solves anything, have forgotten history. A focused application of volence has solved more problems than any other method.
I never said you didn't get your point across. When I said they can't argue their own case I meant by where you stand on the subject (you obviously think homosexuality is wrong and the creator of this topic thinks there is no problem with it. from what you posted I read nothing that supported what you believe is right.)
Oh, well, let me make sure you do understand.
I believe that homosexuality is wrong.
I believe that heterosexuality is right.
I believe the sexual relations are meant for a man and woman that are married.
I believe that sexual relationships outside of marriage is wrong.
KobeEgan wrote:
What i mean by that is, he pointed those things out in the bible, and all you did was disprove some of them and critisize him for not getting some of them in the right places.
I disproved the ones that were wrong. The ones I didn’t disprove didn’t need to be disproving, so why try to disprove them?
KobeEgan wrote:
Nothing supporting why homosexuality is wrong. Most people say it is because it is in the bible.
There are many reasons why homosexuality is wrong. For one thing, as I said in another comment, sexual relations are meant for a man and woman that are married. If you want a full medical reason for it, here you go.
During sexual activity the penis is inserted into the vagina. Through the act of sexual intercourse (I’m certain I don’t need to explain that) the man ejaculates in the woman’s vagina. If it is the right time of the month for the woman, she will become impregnated, unless the man’s sperm is not active enough or birth control is used, which isn’t always effective.
The last time I checked men don’t have vaginas, so that leaves only two places for inserting the penis, neither of which is meant for this purpose.
This is, of course, dealing with the men. The woman is another issue, but since you are a male (or so your gender is indicated in your profile) then I addressed it from that aspect.
There are many diseases that are passed through sexual relations with unmarried people, and more so with homosexuals. Consider that AIDS and HIV are at record highs because of their spread among people that are promiscuous with sexual relationships, along with many other STDs.
Does the Bible say it is wrong? Yes, it does. But there’s a lot more to it than that, and this is just the short list.
KobeEgan wrote:
..he pointed other things out in the bible that don't make sense anymore, but they are still in the bible so why don't we allow them?
From reading that first post of yours you acted like you totally disproved everything he said when you didn't. Thats what I am getting at here. What he said is still in the bible, so why shouldnt it still stand to this day?
I take it you’ve never read the bible all the way through, trying to understand it. I’ll explain it for you.
There was, from the first day of sin, a plan God put into motion. It is called the plan of Grace. But for people to understand Grace, they fist must be under the laws. The laws explained what God expected from His people, the punishment for disobedience (or sin), and the payment for their disobedience, the sacrifices.
Throughout time the laws were in place, and anytime there was a drifting away from the laws, God would punish the people (Israelites) for their disobedience. Sometimes it involved their being defeated in a war and taken to a foreign land, such as Egypt or Babylon. When the people realized their mistake had brought them to this situation, and they repented, God would provide them with grace and release them from their punishment. But if they didn’t, as in the case of Sodom and Gomorrah, God would bring destruction to them. But there was always a raiment that would remain, the faithful that obeyed the laws, even when in captivity.
Sacrifices were part of the payment for disobedience. You need to remember that at that time a family’s wealth was in the livestock or trade they had. If they had livestock, then they would be loosing money when a sacrifice was made. If they worked a trade, such as a builder or producer of breads, then they would have to take money from their earnings to purchase an animal for the sacrifice. Going by today’s standards, the two turtle doves would cost around $3,000, a lamb up to $10,000, and a bull up to $100,000. Keep in mind that the sacrifice had to be healthy, free from defect, and have no blemishes, or spots, on it. These animals cost a great deal more because they were hard to find.
But this was just the beginning of God’s plan. The people had to learn what it was like to be under the laws.
You see, everybody has disobeyed God, or sinned. It’s that sin that keeps us from God, separates us from His glory. The punishment for that sin and disobedience is eternal separation from God and His glory.
But God loved the world so much that He sent His only Son so that all who believed on him would be saved. Jesus, the Christ, which means Messiah or Savior, was the ultimate sacrifice. He was crucified, a punishment that, at the time, was the worse ever created, as the sacrifice, the payment, for our sins. At that moment in time Jesus abolished the need for animal sacrifices. He has paid the price for the sins of all mankind, all we need to do is believe that in our hearts, trust in God’s ability to guide us, and we will be forgiven of our sins.
But there are those who say that if we’re good, decent people we will earn our way to heaven. (I’ll mention something about heaven in a moment.) But that’s not the way it works. Ephesians 2:8 + 9 tells us, “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.” God has provided a means for our salvation from sin, that being the gift the ultimate sacrifice through Christ Jesus.
There are those who say that, because of grace, we have a license to do what we want because in the end God will forgive us. “What then? Shall we go on sinning so that God’s grace may abound? By no means!” (Romans 6:1 + 2) We are to live in accordance to God’s commands. Because of the sacrifice of Jesus, some of those commands have been abolished and no longer apply, such as animal sacrifice.
Now for the comment about:
KobeEgan wrote:
What he said is still in the bible, so why shouldnt it still stand to this day?
When you make a plan for anything, it’s always (or at least should be) broken into steps or actions that need to be taken.
[quote}
Step one: Provide a way for disobedient people to be able to redeem themselves. This is to be done with animal sacrifice because of the value of animals to mankind.
Step two: Make laws for mankind to follow
Step three: Provide a means for grace to be provided.
Step four: Send the Ultimate sacrifice to pay for the sins of mankind. This step will remove the need for animal sacrifice
Step five: Provide grace for those that will believe in the Ultimate sacrifice[/quote].
Not exactly what God said, but that’s basically the way it was done.
I wanted to point out something about heaven, a common misunderstanding. When we die the physical death, the spirit leaves the body and goes to one of two place, heaven (for those that believe in the Salvation that Jesus provided) or hell (for those who reject Jesus as their savior.)
Now understand that heaven will not be the final “resting” place for the believers of Christ. It is a temporary place until the world is recreated. You see, there will come a time when the world is destroyed, along with everything in the universe. Then the world will be recreated again. The new world will be the eternal residence of the believers.
At the same time those in hell will be thrown into the lake of fire, the final place of those who don’t believe in Christ’s salvation provided as a free gift.
Throughout the new testament many of the laws in the old testament were removed or replaced by new laws. It’s kind of like the changes in the laws we have. At one time it wasn’t a problem for people to ride horses on the main highways, but now it’s illegal to do that.
At one time the ingredients in prepared foods weren’t listed on the labels. Now it’s required.
At one time it was illegal to walk a duck down the main street of my home town, unless it was on a leash. Now that law doesn’t exist any more.
Laws change. The need for certain laws doesn’t exist any more, so they are removed or replaced. This is the way it is throughout the world, and in the bible.
KobeEgan wrote:
Also, doesn't matter if I'm a mod...We can still dance: P
Sorry, I don’t dance with males. But we can still debate.
I never said you didn't get your point across. When I said they can't argue their own case I meant by where you stand on the subject (you obviously think homosexuality is wrong and the creator of this topic thinks there is no problem with it. from what you posted I read nothing that supported what you believe is right.)
Oh, well, let me make sure you do understand.
I believe that homosexuality is wrong.
I believe that heterosexuality is right.
I believe the sexual relations are meant for a man and woman that are married.
I believe that sexual relationships outside of marriage is wrong.
KobeEgan wrote:
What i mean by that is, he pointed those things out in the bible, and all you did was disprove some of them and critisize him for not getting some of them in the right places.
I disproved the ones that were wrong. The ones I didn’t disprove didn’t need to be disproving, so why try to disprove them?
KobeEgan wrote:
Nothing supporting why homosexuality is wrong. Most people say it is because it is in the bible.
There are many reasons why homosexuality is wrong. For one thing, as I said in another comment, sexual relations are meant for a man and woman that are married. If you want a full medical reason for it, here you go.
That's your opinion not a reason, it applies to you and you alone.
Quote:
During sexual activity the penis is inserted into the vagina. Through the act of sexual intercourse (I’m certain I don’t need to explain that) the man ejaculates in the woman’s vagina. If it is the right time of the month for the woman, she will become impregnated, unless the man’s sperm is not active enough or birth control is used, which isn’t always effective.
That is the definition of a single type of sexual activity. There is a great deal more to it.
Quote:
The last time I checked men don’t have vaginas, so that leaves only two places for inserting the penis, neither of which is meant for this purpose.
Sexual pleasure can be derived from there so yes they are. Your narrow definition of sex is not realistic. Sexual relations are also possible without any penetration whatsoever
Quote:
This is, of course, dealing with the men. The woman is another issue, but since you are a male (or so your gender is indicated in your profile) then I addressed it from that aspect.
There are many diseases that are passed through sexual relations with unmarried people, and more so with homosexuals. Consider that AIDS and HIV are at record highs because of their spread among people that are promiscuous with sexual relationships, along with many other STDs.
Reckless sexual behavior is a danger but is is possible to have sex without being irresponcible or being married. Homosexuals are no longer the #1 aids patients, because quite frankly diseases respect no boundries, the christian insistance that gay sex spread these diseases is a direct cause of straight women being the #1 sufferers of aids today.
Your strawman is noted.
Quote:
Does the Bible say it is wrong? Yes, it does. But there’s a lot more to it than that, and this is just the short list.
The bible also says its wrong to wear a garment made of more than 2 fabrics.
Quote:
KobeEgan wrote:
..he pointed other things out in the bible that don't make sense anymore, but they are still in the bible so why don't we allow them?
From reading that first post of yours you acted like you totally disproved everything he said when you didn't. Thats what I am getting at here. What he said is still in the bible, so why shouldnt it still stand to this day?
I take it you’ve never read the bible all the way through, trying to understand it. I’ll explain it for you.
As it was quite obviously explained to you.
Quote:
There was, from the first day of sin, a plan God put into motion. It is called the plan of Grace. But for people to understand Grace, they fist must be under the laws. The laws explained what God expected from His people, the punishment for disobedience (or sin), and the payment for their disobedience, the sacrifices.
Throughout time the laws were in place, and anytime there was a drifting away from the laws, God would punish the people (Israelites) for their disobedience. Sometimes it involved their being defeated in a war and taken to a foreign land, such as Egypt or Babylon. When the people realized their mistake had brought them to this situation, and they repented, God would provide them with grace and release them from their punishment. But if they didn’t, as in the case of Sodom and Gomorrah, God would bring destruction to them. But there was always a raiment that would remain, the faithful that obeyed the laws, even when in captivity.
Actually to the Babylonian and egyptian empires the so called 'kingdom of isreal' was called the 'land of bandit tribes'. The early 'tribes' of isreal were a source of cannon fodder and little more.
That said their military defeats were blammed on 'sin' for the same reason the christian crusaders do much later. It makes the people tow the line the priests put out a little more seriously. Especially if the war is being waged in 'God's' name. After all if your fighting God's war how can you lose, it can't be that the faith is based on so much fiction, so a militarily superior enemy beats you fairly.
It must be that the people (don't have enough faith/have to much sin/ect.)
Quote:
Sacrifices were part of the payment for disobedience. You need to remember that at that time a family’s wealth was in the livestock or trade they had. If they had livestock, then they would be loosing money when a sacrifice was made. If they worked a trade, such as a builder or producer of breads, then they would have to take money from their earnings to purchase an animal for the sacrifice. Going by today’s standards, the two turtle doves would cost around $3,000, a lamb up to $10,000, and a bull up to $100,000. Keep in mind that the sacrifice had to be healthy, free from defect, and have no blemishes, or spots, on it. These animals cost a great deal more because they were hard to find.
Not that much more. These were not the overbred, chemically treated animals we have today. Animals with problems died early, most animals meant for sacrifice were raised much like pets. Or raised by people for that express purpose so they were not that expensive. You hyperbole not withstanding most common people did not preform sacrifices. The priests did, one animal a year per community was average. With an entire town helping pay for it a healthy male animal was not hard to afford.
Quote:
But this was just the beginning of God’s plan. The people had to learn what it was like to be under the laws.
Priests plan but I quibble.
Quote:
You see, everybody has disobeyed God, or sinned. It’s that sin that keeps us from God, separates us from His glory. The punishment for that sin and disobedience is eternal separation from God and His glory.
Of course its neigh impossible to not have sinned, even when you obey one commandment your probably breaking another
Quote:
But God loved the world so much that He sent His only Son so that all who believed on him would be saved. Jesus, the Christ, which means Messiah or Savior, was the ultimate sacrifice. He was crucified, a punishment that, at the time, was the worse ever created, as the sacrifice, the payment, for our sins. At that moment in time Jesus abolished the need for animal sacrifices. He has paid the price for the sins of all mankind, all we need to do is believe that in our hearts, trust in God’s ability to guide us, and we will be forgiven of our sins.
Jesus did not exist. Even some early christians had never heard of him as late a 2nd century CE, Jesus is a poor copy of the Roman deity Mithras. Created to make conversion easier.
Quote:
But there are those who say that if we’re good, decent people we will earn our way to heaven. (I’ll mention something about heaven in a moment.) But that’s not the way it works. Ephesians 2:8 + 9 tells us, “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.” God has provided a means for our salvation from sin, that being the gift the ultimate sacrifice through Christ Jesus.
There are those who say that, because of grace, we have a license to do what we want because in the end God will forgive us. “What then? Shall we go on sinning so that God’s grace may abound? By no means!” (Romans 6:1 + 2) We are to live in accordance to God’s commands. Because of the sacrifice of Jesus, some of those commands have been abolished and no longer apply, such as animal sacrifice.
Animal sacrifice is forbiddin in the bible as early as Psalm 40:6, and continue in Isiah and Jerimiah
Quote:
Now for the comment about:
KobeEgan wrote:
What he said is still in the bible, so why shouldnt it still stand to this day?
When you make a plan for anything, it’s always (or at least should be) broken into steps or actions that need to be taken.
[quote}
Step one: Provide a way for disobedient people to be able to redeem themselves. This is to be done with animal sacrifice because of the value of animals to mankind.
Step two: Make laws for mankind to follow
Step three: Provide a means for grace to be provided.
Step four: Send the Ultimate sacrifice to pay for the sins of mankind. This step will remove the need for animal sacrifice
Step five: Provide grace for those that will believe in the Ultimate sacrifice
.
Not exactly what God said, but that’s basically the way it was done.[/quote]
God said nothing. Men wrote the whole 9 yards.
Quote:
I wanted to point out something about heaven, a common misunderstanding. When we die the physical death, the spirit leaves the body and goes to one of two place, heaven (for those that believe in the Salvation that Jesus provided) or hell (for those who reject Jesus as their savior.)
Now understand that heaven will not be the final “resting” place for the believers of Christ. It is a temporary place until the world is recreated. You see, there will come a time when the world is destroyed, along with everything in the universe. Then the world will be recreated again. The new world will be the eternal residence of the believers.
At the same time those in hell will be thrown into the lake of fire, the final place of those who don’t believe in Christ’s salvation provided as a free gift.
Throughout the new testament many of the laws in the old testament were removed or replaced by new laws. It’s kind of like the changes in the laws we have. At one time it wasn’t a problem for people to ride horses on the main highways, but now it’s illegal to do that.
At one time the ingredients in prepared foods weren’t listed on the labels. Now it’s required.
At one time it was illegal to walk a duck down the main street of my home town, unless it was on a leash. Now that law doesn’t exist any more.
Actually it probably does its just not enforced. Most laws that aren't enforced are left on the books so they can arrest anybody at any time.
Quote:
Laws change. The need for certain laws doesn’t exist any more, so they are removed or replaced. This is the way it is throughout the world, and in the bible.
Except unless you can provide text of it your word is meaningless. Your just another cherrypicker
Quote:
KobeEgan wrote:
Also, doesn't matter if I'm a mod...We can still dance: P
Sorry, I don’t dance with males. But we can still debate.
[/quote]
And unless you are of Hebrew decent you aren't a christian. Because Jesus said so.
_________________ People who say violence never solves anything, have forgotten history. A focused application of volence has solved more problems than any other method.
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